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  4. RE: https://mastodon.social/@osma@mas.to/115039233805777372

RE: https://mastodon.social/@osma@mas.to/115039233805777372

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  • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

    1. On "toxic attitudes in the Fedi"

    While there are toxic folks in any social ecosystem, I think this is the wrong interpretation. When Ryan tried to do auto-bridging early on, there *were* toxic responses, and, frankly, those people suck. But there were also folks who had valid criticisms about consent and privacy. A lot of folks may choose an ecosystem because they actively want to *avoid* another one, and ATProto being very public by default is a fair reason to do so. If you (2/8)

    quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
    quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
    quillmatiq@mastodon.social
    wrote last edited by
    #5

    are on Bridgy Fed, then you're on Bsky's public firehose, and not everyone will want that. This is why we've built tools for instances to make their own decisions, and some may decide to go multi-protocol during sign-up. Toxicity exists, no doubt, but that's not the reason I believe consent-driven bridging is the right approach. (3/8)

    quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 1 Reply Last reply
    • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

      Move slow, grow sustainably is the mantra.

      This is the perfect time for me to plug our Patreon and merch. We love doing this work, and we'd appreciate any help from the community to help us continue doing it.

      Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ANewSocial
      Merch: http://store.anew.social/

      (7/8)

      quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
      quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
      quillmatiq@mastodon.social
      wrote last edited by
      #6

      Again, really appreciate Osma's feedback, and hopefully we can fix some of these issues, but we'll be keeping consent at the center of our decisions. (8/8)

      ulrikehahn@fediscience.orgU 1 Reply Last reply
      • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

        working on fundraisers and grants, but long-term funding would be required for us to do more lofty things like this.

        We're only two full-time folks, along with an incredible board and some advisors, and we're *all* volunteering our time because we believe this is critical infra for the open social web. But eventually, raised expenses could force us to make some hard decisions, and we're trying to do all of this as sustainably as possible.

        (6/8)

        quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
        quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
        quillmatiq@mastodon.social
        wrote last edited by
        #7

        Move slow, grow sustainably is the mantra.

        This is the perfect time for me to plug our Patreon and merch. We love doing this work, and we'd appreciate any help from the community to help us continue doing it.

        Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ANewSocial
        Merch: http://store.anew.social/

        (7/8)

        quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 1 Reply Last reply
        • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

          3. On mass-bridging

          Consent is the major reason, but the other reason we haven't done mass-bridging, even for platforms that are *very* public by default and want this, is costs. @anewsocial is almost fully self-funded by us, and to be honest - it's not even cheap as we stand today! If everyone decided that "okay, let's put it all aside and everyone can be bridged," we literally couldn't afford it because the open social web is thriving beyond our expectations (good problem!). We're (5/8)

          quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
          quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
          quillmatiq@mastodon.social
          wrote last edited by
          #8

          working on fundraisers and grants, but long-term funding would be required for us to do more lofty things like this.

          We're only two full-time folks, along with an incredible board and some advisors, and we're *all* volunteering our time because we believe this is critical infra for the open social web. But eventually, raised expenses could force us to make some hard decisions, and we're trying to do all of this as sustainably as possible.

          (6/8)

          quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 1 Reply Last reply
          • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

            Again, really appreciate Osma's feedback, and hopefully we can fix some of these issues, but we'll be keeping consent at the center of our decisions. (8/8)

            ulrikehahn@fediscience.orgU This user is from outside of this forum
            ulrikehahn@fediscience.orgU This user is from outside of this forum
            ulrikehahn@fediscience.org
            wrote last edited by
            #9

            @quillmatiq great thread, thank you!

            thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
            • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

              RE: https://mastodon.social/@osma@mas.to/115039233805777372

              @osma makes some important points here and we always appreciate his feedback. His thoughts have helped shape some of our priorities in the past, so - thank you! But there's a lot to unpack here, so let's dive in: (1/8)

              nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
              nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
              nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net
              wrote last edited by
              #10

              @quillmatiq @osma Totally agreed, I was waiting bridgyFed to come, and the fedi drama after snarfed announcement was terrible, it became impossible to follow influencers from Bluesky

              Hopefully someday it gets better, if Bluesky had a federate button it could help. (And they announce it to make it visible to all)

              nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN 1 Reply Last reply
              • nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net

                @quillmatiq @osma Totally agreed, I was waiting bridgyFed to come, and the fedi drama after snarfed announcement was terrible, it became impossible to follow influencers from Bluesky

                Hopefully someday it gets better, if Bluesky had a federate button it could help. (And they announce it to make it visible to all)

                nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
                nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
                nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net
                wrote last edited by
                #11

                @quillmatiq @osma If someone from Bluesky follows you, it should already be “opt-in” enough.

                Blocking the bridge would have being easy like a lot of servers do with the Nostr -> Fediverse bridge.

                quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 1 Reply Last reply
                • nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net

                  @quillmatiq @osma If someone from Bluesky follows you, it should already be “opt-in” enough.

                  Blocking the bridge would have being easy like a lot of servers do with the Nostr -> Fediverse bridge.

                  quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                  quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                  quillmatiq@mastodon.social
                  wrote last edited by
                  #12

                  @nunesdennis I disagree with that - just bc someone opted into bridging and wants to be exposed to another network does not mean interacting in your own ecosystem is allowance for someone else to expose you the other way. People don't "like" things expecting to be opted into a whole other network.

                  @osma

                  nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN 1 Reply Last reply
                  • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

                    @nunesdennis I disagree with that - just bc someone opted into bridging and wants to be exposed to another network does not mean interacting in your own ecosystem is allowance for someone else to expose you the other way. People don't "like" things expecting to be opted into a whole other network.

                    @osma

                    nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
                    nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN This user is from outside of this forum
                    nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net
                    wrote last edited by
                    #13

                    @quillmatiq @osma Sure, I understand that, and I hate when meta optOut users on their features.

                    but people dont need to opt in to any other fediverse instance, or in bluesky they dont need to opt-in to wafrn, being in a open protocol means people can come from anywhere.

                    BridgyFed is just another instance of atProto+ActivityPub

                    Isnt it why we have blocking?
                    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                    One idea, what if instead of not showing responses from not opt-in users from Bluesky, we show the responses on the fediverse, but private to mentioned people? (They may not want to federate, but they want to respond) 🤔

                    Another idea, They could be visible users with request to follow (until federated - opt-in)

                    quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 1 Reply Last reply
                    • nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.netN nunesdennis@social.vivaldi.net

                      @quillmatiq @osma Sure, I understand that, and I hate when meta optOut users on their features.

                      but people dont need to opt in to any other fediverse instance, or in bluesky they dont need to opt-in to wafrn, being in a open protocol means people can come from anywhere.

                      BridgyFed is just another instance of atProto+ActivityPub

                      Isnt it why we have blocking?
                      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                      One idea, what if instead of not showing responses from not opt-in users from Bluesky, we show the responses on the fediverse, but private to mentioned people? (They may not want to federate, but they want to respond) 🤔

                      Another idea, They could be visible users with request to follow (until federated - opt-in)

                      quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                      quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                      quillmatiq@mastodon.social
                      wrote last edited by
                      #14

                      @nunesdennis I think that argument works for the AT-to-AP direction since AT is public. The other way is trickier because many folks go on the Fedi to avoid public firehoses, search etc. But, we also know folks that use AT specifically to avoid Fedi culture.

                      Again, I think platforms/instances are better decision-makers for their communities. We're happy to support opt-out if a platform owner decides that's the direction they want to go, but that decision shouldn't be centralized by us.

                      @osma

                      thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
                      • ulrikehahn@fediscience.orgU ulrikehahn@fediscience.org

                        @quillmatiq great thread, thank you!

                        thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                        thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                        thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange
                        wrote last edited by
                        #15

                        Yeah really. Excellent thread, and I very much appreciate the approach of moving slowly and growing sustainably.

                        @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                        thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
                        • thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

                          Yeah really. Excellent thread, and I very much appreciate the approach of moving slowly and growing sustainably.

                          @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                          thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                          thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                          thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange
                          wrote last edited by
                          #16

                          One thing I'd push back on though is the "those people suck". Ryan didn't react ot initial gentler feedback that his originally-proposed approach ignored consent. So it's not surprising that the tone of the criticisms got sharper and started to include personal attacks on somebody who was advocating for ignoring consent -- especially since the people who were advocating for consent were getting attacked as well (and continue to). That doesn't make they suck.

                          @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                          julian@fietkau.socialJ quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ 2 Replies Last reply
                          • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

                            @nunesdennis I think that argument works for the AT-to-AP direction since AT is public. The other way is trickier because many folks go on the Fedi to avoid public firehoses, search etc. But, we also know folks that use AT specifically to avoid Fedi culture.

                            Again, I think platforms/instances are better decision-makers for their communities. We're happy to support opt-out if a platform owner decides that's the direction they want to go, but that decision shouldn't be centralized by us.

                            @osma

                            thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                            thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                            thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange
                            wrote last edited by
                            #17

                            I think the argument potentially works for the AT direction ... although in practice quite possibly it'll depend on how quickly the "bad fedi" instances start attacking bridged posts and what the defenses are.

                            @quillmatiq @nunesdennis @osma

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

                              One thing I'd push back on though is the "those people suck". Ryan didn't react ot initial gentler feedback that his originally-proposed approach ignored consent. So it's not surprising that the tone of the criticisms got sharper and started to include personal attacks on somebody who was advocating for ignoring consent -- especially since the people who were advocating for consent were getting attacked as well (and continue to). That doesn't make they suck.

                              @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                              julian@fietkau.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              julian@fietkau.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              julian@fietkau.social
                              wrote last edited by
                              #18

                              @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                              Well, Anuj limits "those people suck" to "toxic" responses, which makes it a true statement by (circular) definition, depending on how you apply the "toxic" label.

                              Clearly not all criticism, even if it was pointed, should be labeled as toxic.

                              But when all this happened, I made a mental note of the worst toxicity I saw, and the person calling for Ryan's email to be spammed with CSAM definitely sucks.

                              thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
                              • julian@fietkau.socialJ julian@fietkau.social

                                @thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                                Well, Anuj limits "those people suck" to "toxic" responses, which makes it a true statement by (circular) definition, depending on how you apply the "toxic" label.

                                Clearly not all criticism, even if it was pointed, should be labeled as toxic.

                                But when all this happened, I made a mental note of the worst toxicity I saw, and the person calling for Ryan's email to be spammed with CSAM definitely sucks.

                                thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                                thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                                thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange
                                wrote last edited by
                                #19

                                I certainly think that's an incredibly toxic response, and it's quite possible that had I see the post I too would conclude that person sucked.

                                But in general, when somebody from a marginalized background in a highly emotionally-charged situation where a more privileged person is advocating doing something that will harm marginalized communities makes a toxic response, that doesn't necessarily mean they suck as a person. At least in my view!

                                @julian @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange

                                  One thing I'd push back on though is the "those people suck". Ryan didn't react ot initial gentler feedback that his originally-proposed approach ignored consent. So it's not surprising that the tone of the criticisms got sharper and started to include personal attacks on somebody who was advocating for ignoring consent -- especially since the people who were advocating for consent were getting attacked as well (and continue to). That doesn't make they suck.

                                  @UlrikeHahn @quillmatiq

                                  quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  quillmatiq@mastodon.social
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #20

                                  @thenexusofprivacy This is fair pushback, I shouldn't have categorized all the "toxic" responses as people who suck. Appreciate the feedback - some sucked, some were angry for fair reasons.

                                  @julian @UlrikeHahn

                                  thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • quillmatiq@mastodon.socialQ quillmatiq@mastodon.social

                                    @thenexusofprivacy This is fair pushback, I shouldn't have categorized all the "toxic" responses as people who suck. Appreciate the feedback - some sucked, some were angry for fair reasons.

                                    @julian @UlrikeHahn

                                    thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                                    thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                                    thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #21

                                    Cool. A rare moment of consensus!

                                    OK that's enough consensus, now back go arguing. In this thread I shall ... (1/275)

                                    @quillmatiq @julian @UlrikeHahn

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